Building a Million-Dollar Customer-Centric Moving Empire

From a podcast interview featuring Cameron Brown, Co-Owner of Einstein Moving Co.

Overview

In the latest CEO Growth Talks episode, Pete Hayes interviews Cameron Brown, Co-Owner of Einstein Moving Company. Cameron talks about their journey in scaling Einstein Moving Co., highlighting key lessons learned along the way. He discusses starting in different industries and overcoming growth challenges and stresses the importance of clear communication, financial savvy, and constant innovation for maintaining success during fast business growth.

"We saw the opportunity to bring some technology and fresh perspective to the moving industry. We saw a gap, and we figured we could go after it." - Cameron Brown

Key Takeaways

• Starting a business requires patience, differentiation through core values, and a clear understanding of customer expectations.

• Efficient leadership entails setting clear goals, providing swift feedback, and aligning coaching efforts with core values.

• Fiscal awareness, utilizing resources effectively, and constant learning are crucial for sustained growth and financial stability.

• Empowering employees with feedback, praise, and redirection fosters a culture of continual improvement and high performance.

• Structured systems can help refine operations, set goals, and achieve organizational alignment.

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[Episode Transcript]

[00:00:05] Pete Hayes: Hello and welcome to this week's edition of CEO Growth Talks. I am so pleased to share this opportunity to introduce Cameron Brown, a co-owner of Einstein Movers in Austin, Texas, right here where I live. They're no stranger if you're from Austin because you see their trucks everywhere.

[00:00:29] Pete Hayes: Cameron, welcome to the broadcast. 

[00:00:31] Cameron Brown: Thanks Pete, thanks for having me. Glad to be here. 

[00:00:34] Pete Hayes: Well, you have been building this business with your partner for, is it 12 years now?

[00:00:38] Cameron Brown: Yeah, about 12 years. We started the business in January of 2012. 

[00:00:42] Pete Hayes: You're an A&M grad. That's hard for me to say because I put one of my kids through UT, but you're an A&M grad, and your partner is as well. 

[00:00:50] Cameron Brown: Right. Paul and I were actually in the same kindergarten class together. 

[00:00:54] Cameron Brown: We're in the same kindergarten graduating class. We grew up together, and we ended up becoming roommates at Texas A&M. He stayed an extra year to get his master's. 

[00:01:02] Pete Hayes: You got your engineering degree. So, you have an engineering degree in industrial engineering. I can't wait to talk about how that helps you in the business. I don't think you had an industrial engineering job, but you've built a business that requires all sorts of great processes and getting people all on the same page together and so forth.

[00:01:21] Pete Hayes: So, were you doing any other things before you guys started this business? It seems like you may have gotten going pretty quickly out of school. 

[00:01:29] Cameron Brown: Yeah. When I got out of school, I generally decided that I wasn't super jacked about immediately using my degree. I had done some internships in school and wanted to try something different.

[00:01:40] Cameron Brown: When I got out of school, the girl I was dating at the time, we actually moved to Bogota, Columbia, and started an English tutoring company called English Made Easy Tutors. We did that for about a year. While we were there, I was talking to Paul, who had stayed the next year at A&M to get his master's degree in entrepreneurship.

[00:01:57] Cameron Brown: We decided to start a supplement company, and we designed and put together one product. It was called Studies, and it was basically a mix of different natural remedies for stuff like chronic fatigue, ADHD, dementia, and brain development. The idea was to market it to all the college students who were potentially using something like Adderall or something like that instead. 

[00:02:22] Cameron Brown: We actually started that company, got the product made, and while we were doing that, I was working part-time for a moving company just to be able to pay the bills. I was also a substitute teacher during that time as well. Basically, I got Paul working at the moving company along with me, and we just realized, ‘Oh man, like there's a big opportunity here. Our boss is making money.’

[00:02:47] Cameron Brown: We were actually also, during that time, running our Christmas tree lot, which we were also doing at the same time. We were marketing our self-made company.

[00:02:55] Cameron Brown: We started a Christmas tree lot for the season called Kringle's Christmas Trees. We had been talking ourselves into doing that because it was a very high-margin product if you could make it work. Both the supplement company and the Christmas tree lot turned out to be great learning opportunities and not so much great money-making opportunities.

[00:03:15] Cameron Brown: I can tell you that we will not be going into any future endeavors in which our inventory either expires or dies. Those are some hard lessons, but were able to pivot our actual first move with our moving company. It was a truck and a trailer before we moved into trucks because I had a pickup truck. We had enough money to put down into an enclosed trailer, but our first move with our official Einstein Moving was actually taking all of our unsold Christmas trees from our Christmas tree lot to the chipper to get recycled. 

[00:03:44] Pete Hayes: Just for perspective now, let me fast forward all the way.

[00:03:47] Pete Hayes: How many people, how many trucks, how many moves do you do? Give me the stats on where you are today. 

[00:03:53] Cameron Brown: Right now, we have about 325 employees. We have about 73 trucks across 10 locations in Texas and Florida. We're looking at about 20 million in revenue. I think that's close to almost 10,000 moves this year. 

[00:04:08] Pete Hayes: You keep finding. You are still driven. You're a business grower because other people could say, ‘I'm good. I've got 15 people. They're all going to work. I’m making decent money. Things are fine.’ But no, not you. Let's go big. You're one of the bigger regional players. 

[00:04:24] Cameron Brown: We have worked our way into becoming one of the bigger players in Texas. Paul and I both do not want to just sit back. We're anxious people anyway. What's the next step? Where can we go? I also think we got extremely lucky to have started a moving company in Texas, which has four of the 20 fastest-growing cities in America over the last 10 years.

[00:04:47] Pete Hayes: Are you doing mostly interstate moves or you're helping people come in from out of state? That's what people think of in terms of influx, right? 

[00:04:54] Cameron Brown: Yeah. We do not do moves across state lines. All of our moves are within the state. We've done that for a reason. As soon as you start moving cargo across state lines, you have to follow a bunch of different regulations and reporting. It hasn't been something that we've looked at at the moment. Our bread and butter are local or within-the-state kind of moves, residential stuff.

[00:05:14] Pete Hayes: So, from the outside, you can google movers and movers in Austin or whatever, and guys own the organic spot. But it doesn't seem like there's any shortage of moving companies, yet you got in because you saw that maybe it wasn't being run as well, and you thought maybe money was being left on the table. What really pulled you in? You started that conversation when you were working in a moving company. 

[00:05:37] Cameron Brown: Well, sure. Yeah, there are two things that put us in. One, the capital required to get a moving company started is not heavy, right?

[00:05:43] Cameron Brown: It's a lot of sweat equity at the beginning. For us, especially, I had a pickup truck. As I said, we had $1,000 to scrape together to put a down payment on an enclosed trailer. You know, you need some moving blankets and some shrink wrap and some dollies, but outside of that, you need a strong back and a little bit of work ethic to put some moves together.

[00:06:02] Cameron Brown: That was part of it, right? We could get into the market, but if we hadn't been working for another mover and understood the opportunities to bring technology, we would have brought higher customer service. The industry itself has gotten a lot better over the last 12 years, but especially when we were first getting started, it was pretty antiquated that if you would look at even some of the larger regional players and national players websites, you would think those were built in the 1980s, and you might fax your quote over or something silly like that. 

[00:06:36] Cameron Brown: We saw the opportunity to bring some technology, bring some fresh perspective to the industry, but also the industry was also known for just being terrible at customer service and like it had such a horrible reputation, especially 12 years ago, even now today. You’re looking at moving the traditional mover in someone's head, which isn't as clean-cut or well-mannered. There's anxiety that comes with the process of moving.

[00:07:01] Cameron Brown: These companies that were present or around that we saw operating weren't doing a good job at easing those anxieties. It was obvious to us as movers at a small player company and recognizing how our boss operates. Some of this stuff seems shady. Some of this stuff seems like it could be operated more efficiently. We saw a gap, and we figured we could go after it. 

[00:07:24] Pete Hayes: So, now you excel in those gap areas before. How do you get the insight to innovate in customer service areas? How do you stay close to that? 

[00:07:35] Cameron Brown: I think you just got to always be looking for opportunities to learn. A lot of that comes from customer feedback, making sure that you have a frictionless way as possible to gather customer feedback if a customer is upset or if a customer is happy, making sure it's as easy as possible for them to let you know about their sentiment around their moves so that you can identify when issues come up quicker and then respond, patch holes.

[00:08:01] Cameron Brown: We're much more effective in the customer service game now, probably because we've seen 30,000 to 40,000 different iterations of the same problem, and we've been open to getting feedback and responding to that feedback quickly and then saying, ‘Okay, we've seen this problem once or twice or three or four times, how do we go about patching this hole so future customers don't see the same thing?’

[00:08:21] Cameron Brown: What do we need to put into our process? How can we ensure that there are other quality controls in place that we're asking an additional question during our initial estimating or surveying, or we're putting in some other safe guard to reduce the chance? Most of the time, customer dissatisfaction comes from a gap between customers' expectations and the reality from which we can provide. 

[00:08:43] Cameron Brown: I think the biggest thing we've learned is making sure that the gap between their expectation and our reality is as small as possible. We try to be very upfront with what they should expect, what they should be paying, what the process of the move will be, and when and how they'll hear from us so that what will actually happen on move day is a representation of what they've already been told is what happened.

[00:09:03] Cameron Brown: It's usually when they have expectations because we haven't done a good enough job filling in, preemptively getting ahead of their questions, or making sure that they have all the information that they need. That's usually, at least at the beginning, where we find the biggest opportunities to improve our customer service experience. Nowadays, it's just being very quick and reactive when we see something.

[00:09:24] Cameron Brown: So, that's part of it, and then the other part is just learning what you can from other business owners, in books, podcasts, stuff like you're just being open to, you know.

[00:09:34] Pete Hayes: Are there certain books that have been your go-to that you got the biggest light bulbs going off?

[00:09:39] Cameron Brown: Sure. I probably have three or four books that I've done a ton for me setting the foundation in a few different areas. One really good book from a customer service experience, if you want inspiration, that I've read recently, is called Unrealistic Hospitality. I think the author's name is Will Guidara. He owned what was once the highest-rated restaurant in the world in New York City for a while. He has a whole book about how it created the culture to deliver these exceptional customer service experiences that kind of go above and beyond.

[00:10:08] Cameron Brown: That's what makes moving so fun to be in; it's that there's literally thousands of touch points in a move, and you're dealing with very sentimental high-value things, and so your opportunities to provide customer service experiences that go above and beyond are so many. We have so many touchpoints where we can excel. 

[00:10:24] Pete Hayes: Yeah. I can see you figuring this out, getting whooped up, and reading your books. When you and Paul get together, how do you get the whole organization fired up to deliver great results? Because that's your reputation. You guys are on a different plane. It seems your people are all behind the mission. How have you done that? 

[00:10:41] Cameron Brown: Sure. I think we had pretty high expectations for ourselves right from the bat because it was just Paul and me for the first 18 months before we hired our first mover to work alongside us. Then, it's probably another six months from that before we hired our first manager.

[00:10:55] Cameron Brown: But we know we've always started with this five-star reputation. As soon as we open up that second branch, you got to be five-star and then the third branch, and now we're in that seven, eight, ninth, tenth branch, you better not be the branch that's not able to elevate yourself up to that.

[00:11:07] Cameron Brown: But I think another part of that is just regular reporting. We're gathering our net promoter score as frequently as possible, constantly serving, getting in touch with past customers, constantly making sure that we have some benchmarks and that if we start to see a little bit of a drop in customer sentiment, we're able to be proactive and getting ahead of that and making sure that we're having the conversations that we need to have. If we see any patterns arising with any individual mover or any individual manager, we're getting ahead of that. We are getting that coaching in place. 

[00:11:37] Cameron Brown: I think, for the most part, this is how it's always been, is that we're at this level of customer service and that we win the best of awards and that we are the highest ranked competitor in the market. I think it's almost a peer pressure thing. Everyone wants to fit in. 

[00:11:52] Pete Hayes: Expectation; it starts with that. So, you've set the bar high, and you want to keep it high, and everybody knows that. But the fact that you're measuring and communicating the measurement, making changes from the measurements, and responding to the measurements in a timely manner is more than just expectation. You're describing a whole system. 

[00:12:09] Cameron Brown: Yeah. Obviously, our customer service experience is made up of so many other aspects. It's how well our initial estimating phone call went, how well our movers were at introducing themselves and interfacing with kids and dogs, and how well they prepped their furniture and communicated things. If damage happens, how well is our damage claim team able to resolve it? How quickly can we handle that? 

[00:12:31] Pete Hayes: You want data at all those different touch points because those are all things you can adjust. 

[00:12:36] Cameron Brown: Right, and so that's been something that we've gotten much better at over the years, which is identifying the associated behaviors and kind of key performance indicators and objectives we want. Here's how each of these departments—our movers, customer experience team, damage claims team, and estimating team—needs to excel in delivering this customer experience. 

[00:12:59] Cameron Brown: Let's report on these things regularly. Let's ensure we have benchmarks in place and that you clearly understand what you need to do in your job and what behaviors we need from you to be successful. 

[00:13:09] Cameron Brown: Ultimately, as soon as you come on board, you must understand the game's rules. You need to understand how to score in your position. Then, I need to be able to show you the scoreboard as often as possible and help make sure that you're getting the coaching that you need to accomplish the goals, objectives, and behaviors that we've made. 

[00:13:25] Pete Hayes: You just laid this out as an athletic metaphor: the rules of the game, how to score, you're going to have a scoreboard, and you're going to be coached. Is that the nomenclature you use then? 

[00:13:35] Cameron Brown: Sure. I use sports metaphors all the time cause we're 90% guys in a moving company. We've been fortunate to increase the percentage of females on the team over the last few years.

[00:13:47] Cameron Brown: Everyone can get by in a sports analogy, but the bottom line is professionals like professional baseball players, they see their stats, they get their updated stats after every practice, after every game, they know exactly how well they did across all aspects of that.

[00:14:00] Cameron Brown: When they get that kind of feedback, they can react more quickly. If we can give that same level of data and feedback to everyone on our team, then they're much more likely to be able to react more quickly and be able e to adjust so that they can be more successful, make more money, and make the company more money. 

[00:14:16] Pete Hayes: It seems like you've developed this over time, and it's worked well, and you've refined it. But what kinds of bumps have you hit? With a fast-growing business in multiple markets, have you faced decisions about how to enter new markets or shifted your offerings on the commercial side, for example? Can you tell me about the decisions and challenges you've faced?

[00:14:38] Cameron Brown: Some of the challenges we faced early on was understanding how to best match potential managers with new locations. We started in Austin. It took us a long time to talk one of our managers out of moving out of Austin to start up another location.

[00:14:55] Cameron Brown: When we initially tried to start up our Dallas location, our first location outside of Austin, we hired outside of the company. That turned out to be a mistake because there just wasn't enough institutional knowledge or cultural knowledge; we place such an emphasis on our culture. When you are trying to develop a branch from the ground up and hire your first few employees, if you don't have that already built in, it's so much more difficult to readjust later.

[00:15:20] Cameron Brown: So, that was part of it, understanding how we then have had situations where we've sent managers to open up a new location without them having any manager experience with us prior. Like, ‘Hey, you were a great mover. I see you're moving out to Phoenix. Let's go ahead and give that a try.’

[00:15:37] Cameron Brown: Ultimately, that was a learning decision for us. For example, ‘Hey, we need to get you some in-office experience.’ The way you operate as a mover may be very different from how you operate as a manager, and even more different from how you might operate as a manager who's placed alone on an island in a new market.

[00:15:52] Cameron Brown: That's something we're continually learning—how to manage our leadership development pipeline effectively. It's crucial to ensure we have a strong bench in our current areas so that our growth isn't hindered. Ultimately, there are many markets we'd like to expand into, especially those with suitable demographics and growth potential. However, the key challenge lies in finding the right person to take the lead in each location.

[00:16:13] Cameron Brown: That's usually the biggest hindrance: finding someone excited to uproot themselves, move into a new market, and put in the hard work to develop it. It's been a significant learning process for us. Over the past few years, we've improved significantly in setting our objectives and goals, providing more frequent feedback on our metrics and performance data. This has not only helped us identify our top performers at various levels but also enabled us to course-correct new managers more swiftly. 

[00:16:48] Cameron Brown: So, that was significant for us. COVID was obviously a massive challenge for any business owner, with lots to learn from that experience. We became much better at quickly disseminating company-wide communication during COVID, using the appropriate channels to ensure announcements and initiatives reached all 10 locations swiftly and were effectively communicated down to the movers on the ground. One of the biggest obstacles we've faced was, up until last year—and it sounds crazy to say this—we weren't really financially savvy or educated about fiscal responsibility. 

[00:17:21] Cameron Brown: We knew how to read a P&L. Paul has a degree in accounting and a master's in entrepreneurship, so he was acting as our de facto accountant. We were getting some outside help as well. Surprisingly, we managed to operate quite effectively without ever really looking at a balance sheet, which now seems pretty wild looking back.

About 18 months ago, we realized we needed to be more financially aware. So, we brought in a part-time fractional controller and accountant to help us manage our books. About eight months ago, she alerted us that we were potentially three months away from running out of cash, which was a major wake-up call. We were like, ‘Whoa, how did we not see this coming?’

[00:17:57] Cameron Brown: Our revenue has been growing, and our net income is higher. In 2020, our revenue stalled somewhat due to COVID, but by 2021 and 2022, our expenses skyrocketed. This caused our net margin to drop, especially with high fuel and packing supply costs. Fortunately, costs are beginning to decrease now. 

[00:18:13] Cameron Brown: We thought we were doing well, but then we were hit with the reality check: ‘Oh yeah, well, you're about to run out of cash.’ It was the first time we realized that a P&L only tells part of the story. Ultimately, what had happened was we had planned for 25-30% growth, but in reality, we had only grown by 8%. 

[00:18:28] Cameron Brown: The investments we had made in the previous year meant that our 8% growth wasn't sufficient to cover all our operating expenses and debt obligations on the balance sheet. This realization was a significant turning point for us. We needed to understand why we were losing cash and how to stop it. Ultimately, it came down to the need for much greater efficiency in how we used our resources. This led us to start tracking what we now call our truck utilization rate, something we had never monitored before. 

[00:19:02] Cameron Brown: We were always just tracking revenue, but if you're driving a bunch of, but only utilizing your resources 50% of the time, you're not getting the maximum efficiency out of your resources. 

[00:19:10] Cameron Brown: So, that changed a lot of how we thought and kicked into play many other things that had been on the back burner. Right around that time, we also hired a fractional chief sales officer who helped us turn who we did with Chief Outsiders, which is why I'm talking to you guys today. His name is Dave. 

[00:19:28] Pete Hayes: Thank you. This isn't intended to be a commercial. I was so impressed when I heard your story that I wanted to bring you out for the program. Thank you for reaching out and allowing us to participate in your growth. 

[00:19:39] Cameron Brown: But ultimately, all of a sudden, we got that fiscal awareness that we can't just look at our revenue and our net income. That's not enough. We have to look at our cash sheet, starting to get more savvy on the impact of forecasting our cash budgets and having a better understanding of how we should invest from year to year and how quickly we can afford to grow because that's not a conversation that we had had previously. Can we afford to grow this quickly? 

[00:20:03] Cameron Brown: If we make these capital investments this year and don't grow as much as we expect, how will that impact our cash projections? That was a huge moment for us. That turned around right around that time.

[00:20:14] Cameron Brown: We brought on Dave, Chief Sales Officer, who had a huge impact on us. In terms of underutilization, we were also dramatically underutilizing our inbound leads. We only answer the phone 70% of the time. We weren't selling to our differentiators appropriately. We weren't doing any sales follow-up. We didn't have any sales targets or quotas in place for our sales team. So, just implementing that allowed us to be much more efficient on the sales side. 

[00:20:40] Cameron Brown: If you are a new business owner in the 5 to 10 million or under range in terms of annual revenue, the entrepreneurial operating system, the book Traction is great. We've been operating with traction for a long time, but as soon as we crossed the 10 million market, it also stopped working. This last year, we switched to the Scaling Up system. Another great book. I think it works much better for companies.

[00:21:05] Cameron Brown: We've implemented much of the playbook outlined in Scaling Up. A lot of it's similar to Traction. Still, you need to take a slightly different approach to your quarterly goal setting, handle your scorecards, meet cadence, and align the organization around quarterly themes and more set initiatives.

[00:21:24] Cameron Brown: In the last six months, being more fiscally aware, getting the chief sales officer together, and then switching to the scaling up has brought a whole bunch of change in the organization, but got us in a much better position fiscally and cash wise.

[00:21:38] Cameron Brown: We have a much longer runway now, and we don't have the anxiety that came eight months ago when it got put on our radar that you guys have a couple more payrolls left before you guys are in a position where you're opening up a lot of credit. That's never fun to hear as a business owner. 

[00:21:54] Pete Hayes: Let me ask you two questions. We've heard pieces of this, but how would you describe your leadership style? You're growing a fast-growing company, and you seem to be getting some traction and attacking challenges that you face, and they're different from year to year. But what's your leadership style or Paul's leadership style? 

[00:22:11] Cameron Brown: I try to be honest, candid, quick with praise. If you're looking for a few more books, some things that influenced me, The Effective Manager has been a huge one. Culture by Design by David Friedman has been a huge one. How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie has been huge. 

[00:22:29] Cameron Brown: If you're aiming to influence your own personal coaching and leadership style, those aspects have all been significant for me. For me, much of it boils down to being very clear from the outset that you cannot effectively coach or lead someone unless you're able to set clear goals. Ensuring that they understand the rules of the game, how to score, and that their goals, objectives, and expected behaviors are clear is crucial.

[00:22:59] Cameron Brown: Once you have set that, at least for me personally, I feel the need to be quick with praise when they're doing something right. I need to be prompt with redirection when they fall short. When issuing redirections, I don't focus too much on the past or their intentions. 

[00:23:13] Cameron Brown: That's been a significant shift for me. Everyone's intentions are always good. I don't want to delve into a conversation about your intentions. I'm more focused on the results and what we can do moving forward. I think that part—ensuring clear, super crystal-clear objectives—is crucial. Making sure they understand exactly how to play the game, how to score, and how they can be most effective in their role. 

[00:23:31] Cameron Brown: Then, you give them constant feedback like that professional baseball player, they're going to get constant feedback. They're going to run thousands of double plays in the off-season, in spring camp, and they're going to get feedback on all of those, and that's how they get better.

[00:23:44] Cameron Brown: An analogy we sometimes use is if you're a manager who's not giving quick praise and quick redirects, and it's like bowling, but when you can't see the pins fall, you can't see the results of your efforts. Even worse, if you're never giving praise and if you're the kind of boss who only gives a redirect when someone's doing something wrong, then it's bowling, but your boss only ever tells you how many pins you miss.

[00:24:06] Cameron Brown: That's not fun. To be an effective leader, in my opinion, you need to be able to influence behavior. That's ultimately becoming a coach. I believe the best way to influence behavior is by giving positive feedback that is as close to the action as possible.

[00:24:24] Cameron Brown: As soon as they do something good, or even if they get something halfway right, make sure they see some positive feedback from that. Sometimes that's comp, sometimes that's additional benefits, sometimes a good review, but oftentimes as a leader, that's just got to come down to you picking up the phone and taking 30 seconds to let them know, ‘Hey, this was your goal. You did a great job in achieving this goal. When you do this, here's the kind of success that it brings to the organization and yourself. Great job. Keep it up. ‘

[00:24:54] Cameron Brown: I think that is my personal leadership style for me. 

[00:24:58] Pete Hayes: Well, we're just about out of time and just a few sentences; what's your advice to other CEOs, other entrepreneurs right now in this economy, in this market? Whether just a couple of things that you would advise them to take a look at.

[00:25:11] Cameron Brown: Sure. If you're getting started, I think you should find your differentiators early and clarify what those differentiators are. If you're going to enter a new market, make it very clear to potential clients why you are different so that you can sell those differentiators and be consistent with your service. 

[00:25:25] Cameron Brown: As I mentioned earlier, make sure the expectations that you set are very consistent with the reality that you can provide. If you're getting started, understand that being patient is a big part of being a business owner. So many of us are overly optimistic, overly anxious, and constantly want results now, and that's great to have, but you have to remind yourself that this stuff takes time.

[00:25:46] Lastly, identify the set of core values and behaviors that define what makes your company successful. Define what makes each individual position in your organization successful. Then, clarify and communicate those values and behaviors clearly throughout the organization.

[00:26:01] Cameron Brown: You need to push all of your coaching through the lens of those core values to remind your team daily of the expectations and make sure it's part of their daily habits. Other than that, read the books I mentioned and make learning part of your every day, every week's to-do list.

[00:26:18] Pete Hayes: Cameron, you've provided all sorts of context and advice.

[00:26:20] Pete Hayes: Congratulations on the work in progress with the fast-growing, awesome business to you and Paul, and I'm just so glad you joined us today. Thank you, Cameron and we'll see everybody else in our next episode of CEO Growth Talks. Take care.

[00:26:34] Cameron Brown: Thanks Pete.